Talk:Pages patronyme

Les pages patronyme sont vides

Les pages patronyme sont vides exemple, pour obtenir la liste des personnes il faut maintenant cliquer sur le lien dans le cartouche "autres langues"--Mamonaku (talk) 10:55, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

• yes, the old behavior was not appropriate - the cacheable wiki page was displayed together with the non-cacheable data. Now these data views are separated. In the new version of MW it is very difficult to keep the old half-cache feature. So we have to make a choice:
  1. Leave as is: by default - a link to a person's clan points to the clan description page, where you can find link to a list with clan members.
  2. by default - a link to a person's clan points to the clan members list - and we can add a link to the clan description page there.
• --Baya 14:06, 5 March 2026 (UTC)

A titre personnel je préfèrerais l'option 2. De plus il me semble illogique que les liens "Patronyme" pointent sur la page clan alors que les liens "Spécial:Clan" arrivent sur la liste des personnes.

The old behaviour had good sides (and difficulties) as can be seen here.

People were listed in alphabetical order, although there were two alphabets (with the Ukrainian I before A) and some people edited recently in Slavic localisations had to be found in the Cyrillic section with a Latin title.

If the second choice is prefered — the clan link in a record leading directly to a special page with the list —, will the list follow an alphabetical order or follow the order of creation as shown in the Special:Clan/X pages.

I changed it to be in alphabetical order. --Baya 18:01, 6 March 2026 (UTC)

---

I see the issue ...

All RD person lists show records from all localisations by default... But records in common storage are updated at the moment of update of last localization. So record can be in any language in the common storage. And as consequence it will be sorted by the language in the common storage. And it will be mix of languages.

Pure alphabetical sorting is working if "show only local records" is chosen (the link in the page subtitle).

I switched clan link to Special:Clan/...

Any comments are very appreciated :)

If it's ok - I'll "close" this task.

--Baya 13:38, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

---

I am an almost complete amateur, so i must try to clarify : the cacheable part is the editable "Clan" page (namespace 1004) while the non-cacheable data is the list given by the special page (namespace -1) ? -- Dn Gov (d) 15:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• yes, you are right --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

the lineage link in a person

About the second option (the lineage link in a person's record ending directly in the special page with the list of surnames) :

Will there still be the "other languages" links? -- Dn Gov (d) 15:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• the situation with clan "other languages" links is not very simple. family name in one language can be "translated" with many forms in other language. here coup examples:

• [1] - one form in uk - 3 forms in de. - page shows records from all langs - so it is not sorted normally. so we need to have many lang links - they are collected automatically.
• [2] - page shows records only from one lang. - good sorting (in this case, I think we can even add collation here for better sorting). - but lang links are shown for approx all records.
• [3] - clan has records only in fr lang - so there are no any lang links. And clear sorting. --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• the special page automatically check "Clan:<page>" existence - and if it exists the sys messsage "rd-clan-page-exists" is used to show the link to the editable page. (all 3 above examples have a corresponding page in 1004 namespace) - [4] - example without a corresponding page. --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

Will it be necessary to customise the special page by editing for example MediaWiki:clan-summary and adding there something like {{subst:Source:{{clanname:{{PAGENAME}}}}}}, in order to add information about the surname on the "Source:Clanname" page ? -- Dn Gov (d) 15:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

we can add a common sys message that will be shown always - "rd-clan-records" if you think it is required. --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

I think that i wrongly read what you wrote. If we call "Lineage" the namespace 1004 (as in Rodovid_En) and "Clan" the special page with the list, the 1.9.6 behaviour was perhaps a kind of "transclusion" of the Clan into the Lineage page.

I was too familiar with that old system and i believed that you proposed as second choice the possibility to add a link in the Clan special page to bring there a "transclusion" of the Lineage. I suppose now that it would cause the same problems as before.

So i am envisaging that maybe you could keep in records the surname link associated with the Lineage page, while to the right under "Full tree" and "Descendants" you could add a "Clan" link to reach the special page with the whole list. -- Dn Gov (d) 21:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

Oh, I see. Changed in this way:
On the record page there are two links:

• from top of the page to the Pathronym page as it was before.
• a new link added to the person links box - this link directs to the special page. --Baya 10:17, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Thank you. I added a section to the French discussion page so that all users can follow the new evolutions. Dn Gov (d) 11:10, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Thank you! --Baya 11:13, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

clan or family

I see that "clan" idea is very non-intuitive. And I'm going to remove it at all. Let's think that it was a first step - renaming - no more clans - just family-name/pathronym ? As result we will have dedicated namespace for family names (Europium tradition). --Baya 10:17, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Until now, i believed that clan and family name meant the same thing on the site. Dn Gov (d) 11:59, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

---

Exactly, but because of in Slavic languages we have different forms of one family name for man and woman - it was an attempt to normalize it. And it failed. So only family name should be used at all. And if I'm right this additional field should be removed. ...

I was going to simplify this stuff with "clan" ... but ... It is a really complex issue - we can't use one variant :) - instead of many - and I see it in this way as we have now.

• a separate page about family name - were it can be discussed, described, etc. redirect from less common variants can be manually created. This page can be very huge and reload it every time to see 100 family name records is inappropriate.
• an automatic special page that shows nearest variants.

in addition - I think about removing the field "clan" and instead of it the first family name of person will be used (As it works now, but with a special field and complexity). That's it. --Baya 12:56, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

Do you mean that the clan system was not working correctly because for example some users forgot to use the plural form of Slavic surnames (causing not enough unity) or because language links ended in bringing together surnames that were not related to each other (provoking unwanted unity)?

Do you envisage to use basically the singular form and ask users to enter derived forms with hyperlinks like [[Козацький|Козацька]] ?

both, it is not understandable easily, moreover it can not resolve a problem of variants in any way. Singular form is just one side of this problem. It was too many years ago and I did not understand that it is unsolvable automatically. So variants should be collected in some way manually. And the automatic special page can help people a bit ... --Baya 16:18, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

customize the alphabetical order

Is it possible to customize the alphabetical order for a correct Cyrillic script? -- Dn Gov (d) 15:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• sorting: when onlylocal=1 is used - records are sorted at most correctly (see example #2). There are many Cyrillic alphabets and they are sorted in different ways - so the special collation sorting is required. --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

If each localisation does achieve a good sorting with a specific rule, maybe Rodovid could have its own collation rule to combine Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian, Serbian alphabets and related scripts? -- Dn Gov (d) 21:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• It is impossible to combine them. All these languages use approx same Cyrillic symbols - but sort them in different order. I think I found a solution - I need to sleep with it. --Baya 08:18, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

deliberately a space in the title

Is there deliberately a space in the title ? -- Dn Gov (d) 15:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• title: at this moment the title of this special page is configured as "<MediaWiki:Rd_clan><space><Clan name>" - if you think we need something special - we can add yet one sys message. --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

I thought there was a colon after "clan" so i was wondering why a space followed; now all is well. -- Dn Gov (d) 21:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• it was. I removed it. :) --Baya 12:43, 10 March 2026 (UTC)

resources

Is one option demanding more resources from the server? -- Dn Gov (d) 15:00, 9 March 2026 (UTC)

• resources: the old behavior (cached and non-cached data on one page was the worst). Separation is much cheaper. To have the best sorting a special collation should be used. For small clans it is not important. For big clans it is very expensive. --Baya 17:22, 9 March 2026 (UTC)